What of the notion of once saved forever saved?
If a beliver continues to sin, does he still enter the Kingdom upon his death in sin?
Romans 3:10-12.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
The Bible says that NO ONE seeks God, not even one. NO ONE does ANY good. It says elsewhere that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I guess we should first define what sin is…
All have sinned, no one is good, so pray tell how anyone of those saints is in heaven right now. How? When their righteousness is like filthy rags! What if on your deathbed, your last thought is of something unclean, just one fleeting thought, does that mean you have lost salvation? By your definition, it means exactly that. I believe when we make it to heaven we shall be utterly humbled and praise the Lamb and Him only after realizing how much pure grace and mercy it took to get us there. I also believe in not “continually sinning because of grace” however unless Jesus Christ is the one fully in charge (not by our works), then all hope is lost.
Initially we see in Matthew 15:24 where Jesus says “I have come only for the House of Israel” but the hardness of their hearts was too great, culminating in the stoning of Stephen such that God had to raise Paul in his stead, so that Paul could minister to the Gentiles.
The punishment for the Jews (Acts 7:59-60) stoning Stephen is they were scattered all over the world until now when God has brought Israel back to their homeland and getting ready to graft them into this one big family of Jews and Gentiles.
The old testament is a shadow of the new testament realities. Looking at how Adam lost his place, and even it says that some angels lost their place,man can lose his place.
Remember God changes NOT!
How were they cut off?
Notice… Jews are cut off, the Church grafted.
If you say they are cut off from Israel… that can’t be correct. Why? Because the Church isn’t grafted in the land of Israel.
You argued that the cutting off wasn’t about salvation and redemption.
So, what is it about?
It’s definitely not the land of Israel.
From where are the Jews cut off and the Church grafted?
Romans 3:10… who is the text talking about?
You say it is talking about the Church, I say no.
Why?
The quote is about men before redemption.
I’ll illustrate the whole text:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b](P)
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c](Q)
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d](R)
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e](S)
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f](T)
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g](U)
Romans 3:10-12 quotes Psalms 14:1-3
Read the context of the quote…
It is about sinners, not the redeemed.
The Bible never says Christians are sinners… find me a text.
This is what the bible says about the redeemed:
1 John 3:9
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
To argue that men can’t be righteous is to argue against the transformative power of God
What is SIN? Define it
From the vine which is the Lord Jesus Christ. That’s where we are all grafted into.
John 15:1-2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
What does cutting off mean to you?
What is to be cut off from Christ?
How is that not being cut off from salvation?
Lawlessness…
Breaking of God’s commandments.
Don’t argue with your mind, argue with scripture…
Does the bible ever say Christians can live in sin?
Does the bible say Chridtians MUST not sin?
@messiahette
What impact does sin have on salvation?
What happens to a Christian who lives in sin when he dies?
Sin is unbelief in God. Out of that unbelief flows all the other acts of lawlessness.
John 3:18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father.
John 16:8-9.
8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me.
Our salvation comes by faith through grace. We see in Romans 10:17 that faith is derived from the knowledge of God, when you hear about it. Therefore when you become saved (justified, sanctified, filled with the Holy Ghost), it’s an eternal security. You cannot lose salvation because Jesus doesn’t do half jobs. Being the Great Shepherd, He knows all His sheep by name and cannot lose even one after He has saved him/her.
First define salvation… Then we can go to the next thing…
What is sin in the context of a Saved Christian?
I still maintain that Paul in Romans 11:22 was warning that if the Gentiles begin waning in faith en masse, God can cut them off and graft the Israelites back in. This isn’t talking about an individual losing salvation and then coming to faith again after a long period of unbelief (as would be the case of corporate Israel in this passage). No, it is discussing a the big picture of God’s plans for the salvation of people groups, specifically Jews and Gentiles. That God hardened the Jews in part for a time (except for the elect among them) (see Rom 11:7-11) and God did this so the Gentiles could benefit for a time … and then after the full number of the Gentiles come in God declares that He can corporately bring in the Jews again.
Further down in verse 29, we see Paul saying, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” So which is it? Verse 29 clarifies that individual salvation cannot be lost. Once a Christian has been regenerated and received a new birth in the soul, it is so irrevocable. Can a child who is born go back into the mother’s womb? That’s how absurd it should be to think that God’s saving work can be undone.
By definition, if sin is defined as unbelief, then a Christian is a believer (in Christ). Therefore a Christian cannot live or die in sin (in unbelief) by definition. Then he wasn’t a Christian to begin with.
That’s a shallow view of belief…
James says that to believe in God is nothing because even demons believe and tremble.
If you belive Christ died and was resurrected and is the son of God… how is that different from what a demon believes?
Belief/Faith is not just about the person of Christ. It’s about His Lordship.
To simplify:
Can you claim to believe in Christ and still do what He commanded you don’t do?
Can you believe in Christ and not be subject to His commandments?
I will let scripture answer this:
1 John 2:3
3 We know(E) that we have come to know him(F) if we keep his commands.(G) 4 Whoever says, “I know him,”(H) but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.(I) 5 But if anyone obeys his word,(J) love for God[a] is truly made complete in them.(K) This is how we know(L) we are in him: 6 [B]Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did./B
So this is how faith in Christ is tested… by obedience to His commands.
Salvation is inseparable from the commandments of Christ.
I hope you see I don’t just use rhetoric, I find scripture that says what I am saying verbatim.
Simple question…
Do you agree with this scripture that whoever claims relationship with Christ but doesn’t keep the commandments of Christ is a liar?
Disobedience to the commandments of Christ.
Christ said do not lie… if you lie, you sin.
Don’t hate your brother… if you hate your brother you sin.
Again, don’t set the standards for God.
Faith is inseparable from the commandment. Why do you separate the two?
Faith in Christ means Faith in the mission, the person, and teachings of Christ.
To have Faith in Christ is to submit to His commands. To suggest that you can have Faith in Christ and not keep His commandments is absolutely wrong.
What do you understand from the command of Christ:
Keep my commandments and you will remain in my love
I still don’t get your position. You are all over the place…
So Jews were corporately incorporated into God’s kingdom for being Jew and not by keeping the commands?
How you interpret the calling and gifts of God being irrevocable is wrong:
The calling and gifts isn’t about salvation.
We see in Mathew men performing miracles in the name of Christ and they are still locked out of Heaven.
They operated in spiritual gifts, but God wasn’t with them because they were sinners (workers of iniquity)
These are the gifts that are irrevocable.
Let me show in scripture:
Was Judas Iscariot called?
Was His calling revoked?
Will He be going to hell despite his calling?
Let’s answer this three and see whose interpretation of that text aligns with what God did to Judas