An Indefensible Ritual.

Every Friday evening or, sometimes, Saturday evenings, some believers gather together, and head off to give prayers and thanksgiving to the Almighty. In the Christian tradition, and especially in Kenya, the phenomenon is known as Kesha. During this overnight event, the believers sing praises, worship their creator, and pray… hard. They ask for forgiveness, they express their gratitude, and they ask for more blessings. They give promises, negotiate with their maker and make new resolutions. They clap their hands, shout for attention, and talk in tongues. Others get carried away, bang against walls, crawl on the floor, froth from the mouth, and ultimately faint.

It is a very engaging spectacle. It is also a highly illogical spectacle.

In reality, prayers are indefensible. This is because, when examined against the backdrop of all religious doctrines, prayers attain a superfluous status. The core doctrines of the world’s major religions actually, implicitly, show that prayers are not only illogical, but they also contradict every other belief. Let me explain just why this is the case.

When people pray, they believe that they are speaking with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent being. Yet there, right there, lies the quagmire. If you truly believe that you are speaking to an all-knowing being, then your words are essentially unnecessary. An all-knowing being would already know your needs, and doesn’t need reminding. Hence, by praying, you are essentially questioning the omniscience of your creator. You are implicitly revealing your doubts about whether this being remembers you, or your needs.

Another problem with prayers, especially those called petitions, is that they go against the doctrine of the Divine Plan. Believers hold to the perspective that there is a Divine Plan – an ideal route through which events are supposed to manifest. And this is the reason why, when believers observe something unexpected, they say, “It was the will of God”. Or, when making plans about the future, they add, “God willing”. These two statements show that Adherents firmly believe in a Divine Plan, which flows from the will of God. But if this is the case, then petitions in prayers, which are essentially requests for a change of a certain situation, are not only illogical, they are also presumptuous. They presume that God can deviate from his Divine plan and satisfy the unique needs of a mere mortal.

The last major problem with prayers is that they conflict with the ideology of free will. Believers hold the perspective that human beings have free will – the ability to control their destiny. This is the foundation of the doctrine of punishments and rewards – that since people have free will, they are also responsible for their actions. Free will, hence, is a core doctrine of religions. However, when people pray, they actually challenge this same core doctrine. For example, a parent praying for her son’s success is essentially asking God to change the son’s actions and orient them towards success. But if God was to do that, he would have to infringe on that son’s free will. After all, the son may be more inclined to be a rogue.

Given the above three fundamental problems, it should be clear that a prayer is a ritual that ignores every other core doctrine of whichever religion it is practiced in. The next time you kneel down to pray, ask yourself the following:

  1. Are you implying that God isn’t aware of what you are about to say?
  2. Do you really believe that God can deviate from his Divine Plan and Will just to satisfy your personal desires?
  3. Do you really want to interfere with the free will of that loved one that you are praying for?
2 Likes

first, we dont only pray to ask for things…we pray to say thanks and acknowledge God’s blessings and to communicate. if we did not pray just because He knows our every need, then people would not create a relationship with Him.

second, you have taken free will out of context…free will implies that God doesn’t impose his rules on you…he gives you the choice of following what you think is the right path.

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If two sportsmen pray before a match against each other, who does God listen to?

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God is [SIZE=4][B]Omniscient [/B]hence he knows “what is in your heart and mind” he knows if you are thankful or not. So I do not see the need to pray. If he knows then why pray?

The need to pray just so that you can “create a relationship with him” even though you know prayers are [/SIZE]unnecessary[SIZE=4] just shows that God is a creation of the human mind.

First, God does impose rules on you. You must be aware of the duality of Heaven and Hell and what differentiates those who will end up in those places.

If God is omnipotent, what is it that he can not do?
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The one who is Christian.

What is this all about? Leave people to live their life the way they want. If you dont want to pray, that is okay with you.

2 Likes

Looking into the nature of prayer.

I will post anything that I want on this forum unless the moderators say otherwise and since you are not one, beat it.

I am expressing my doubts in prayer and there is nothing wrong with it. I do not see you posting the same on those threads that agree with your personal beliefs therefore it would not be far-fetched to assume you agree with them. Ergo, you are a hypocrite that should not be taken seriously.

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Nobody prohibits you from posting whatever you want. However, it would be better if you post about what you understand, else post to ask about what you do not understand. You clearly do not understand what prayer is all about, yet here you are posting about it (sorry, copy-pasting it).

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This is good. However, when you say…

You are retreating back into your cocoon of hypocrisy. This is not a suggestion.

By posting in a public forum and leaving the comment box open, haven I shown interest in a discussion?

Now this is good. I can see that you are now beginning to show interest in a conversation on the topic at hand. Tell me where I am wrong in my views.

Post the original source if you have it.

PS: Inbox me your e-mail so I can send you my brain-scan to assist you in the task above.

1 Like

The Gods NEVER imposes Their will or rules on you. You have a choice to listen and follow, or to ignore. That choice is yours.
You have chosen to post this. Imagine if they refused? You’d not post this.
You pray because you talk to Them, same way you talk to your parents. You ask, you apologize, you listen na kadhalika.

Free will was explained perfectly above.

As for this Divine Plan, The Lord knows the plan. Whatever action you take, He knows. He has allowed it to happen.
You can ask Papa for anything and if He wants to give it to you, He will. That remains His choice. He can also refuse.
However the choice to ask or not, is yours. The end result, is His. That is free will.
It doesn’t mean you can’t do what you want. You can. The only question is, is it of The Gods or is not of The Gods.

You see, everything you do, and say, is the Hands of Papa. Now, He knows you have questions regarding prayer.
Do you know who led you to ask and post this? The Holy Spirit. Maybe you’ll get an answer. Maybe not.
Please note there is a very thin line between “letting you” and “leading you”. You’d have to discern the two.

His omnipotence means He can do whatever He wishes. “I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things”. He can do whatever He wants.

About the sports guy and who Papa listens to, what is their prayer? I bet in your mind it’s “Let my team win this”
The winner will be the one who scores and the loser will take home lessons.
The prayer that comes from the heart, is the one He will respond to - and He will respond how He wants.

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:smiley:

Algay shit is one intelligent fag, ati copy pasta.Hehehe that was a compliment.

1 Like

I could post hundreds of examples of gods who dangle the proverbial carrot on a stick - follow me into utopia, or fail to follow me, and perish in eternal misery, but I do not have the time. However, I will point you to the ten commandments allegedly issued by the Judaeo-christian god called God, specifically the first one [SIZE=4]Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me. [/SIZE]
The rest is him telling people how to live their lives. And with most of those rules being damnable I do not see how a faithful can have a choice about following them, especially when they are issued by an omnipotent being who has been known to send devastative global floods and fire and brimstone on cities as punishment to those who do not abide to his rules.

Read the post again.

Your parents are not Omniscient thus the need to tell them what they do not know or are doubtful of… My point is that the perspective (omniscience) conflicts with any rationalization for prayer. Even trying to highlight the most important issues still implies that God can not prioritize. But how can this be, if prioritizing is part and puzzle of possessing knowledge?

Why does a mother need to ask for healing on behalf of her dying child?
If he knows all my actions (past, present, future) then how can I have free will if he is able to intervene and has been show to do so in the past.

Your last sentence in this quote contradicts the first on in your reply above.

I was led here by my curiosity and inquisitiveness which I have cultured over the years.

Ok, you win.
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

I’ll respond going up.

You see that “I was led here by my curiosity…”, that is The Holy Spirit. Curiosity however is not the Holy Spirit.
And that is the heart that The Gods will not respond to.

You speak of omniscience like being so means you having to leave everything. Do you want Them to come down and feed you?
Or do you want them to come and carry you to school? They know you need education. Do you want them to drive the bus as well?
What I mean by these questions is this; that you cannot say because He is omniscient, you expect Him to micromanage your life.
You have freedom to ask, to question, to implore. He decides whether to respond. His response is His Will and it will be done.

Why I speak of your parents is the relationship aspect. Your parents know things about you that even you don’t know.
They will know when you want something, and sometimes they will wait for you to ask. Some will do something else.

Tell me, where in the world are there no rules/laws? The govt is an authority greater than you.
In this nation, do you do whatever you want without consequence?
The reason for the rules or “telling them how to live their lives” is so that they can all get along.
Would you get along with someone who thinks murder, theft, stealing, lying is ok?
And they murder and steal from people close to you because they can?
The commandments, just like laws, are regulations for proper societal living.
Again, you can CHOOSE to decide whether to follow or not - free will.
And as is everywhere, choices have consequences.

You see, again, The Gods know that without proper arrangement, this world would be worse than it is.
In Their infinite wisdom, they created laws.

A mother will ask for life for her dying child because of love for the child. Do you know the pain of a parent?
But then if The Gods take the child away, then what? You bury him.
The request is a prayer, the result is His Will.

He may intervene for the sake of someone else. That is where the omnipotence comes in. It’s not just you in this world. So we need to be less selfish and remember the world doesn’t revolve around you and your actions. There others that must be taken care of. I also have to remember this myself all the time.

The Judeo-Christian God is called I AM aka Yahweh. God is an encompassing word. Like man.

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Bullshit! Curiosity is a function of the brain, even animals posses it. Are they being let by the holy-spirit too. And why is it not Ganesha, Athena or Serapis influencing me?
And if this is so then how can you claim that I have free will when my actions can be influenced by this external force that permeates the universe and is also subject the human mind?

Are you even listening to yourself?

I do not fully understand this part. Where did you get this?

He already does micromanage human life!

So now you admit that God does impose his rules on humans.

How then (I repeat myself) can humans have free will under rules imposed and enforced by an omnipotent being who clearly has selfish interests?

Rules are a good, but why should they be set by your god?

He is omniscient and therefore he already knew that the child was going to die and that the mother would try to meditate before that and he also knew what his answer (action) was going to be. What is the point of praying.

If you continue like this I am going to end up having paraphrased my post above. Rad it first.

I agree that the world does not revolve around me.

How does omniscience come in when "he intervenes for the sake of someone else?

God is a proper noun that is used in place of Yahweh. Encompassing for the trinity… Yahweh is…

I was not competing with you… matter of fact we did not even have a conversation.

If there is anyone who was trying to drag this post into a mud pit, it’s you. I didn’t learn anything from you, and you seem happy.

Next time try to accommodate contrary ideas without unnecessary hostility, @aviator, after all that is what this place is meant for… sharing ideas. Goodnight!

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You’re missing every point and purposefully so.

Serapis is not a real god. Neither are the other two you’ve mentioned. They can’t lead you to do a thing!
Animals do not possess the Image of God. So they cannot be led by The Holy Spirit. They are led by instinct.

You want the rules to be set by who? Set your own and live by them.
He set the rules coz He created the earth. Your house your rules. Right or wrong?
You make it sound as if you live under no rules whatsoever when indeed you do.
Your office has rules, the highway has rules, the bar has rules… it is your choice to follow or not.
Why are you not saying that the govt has selfish interests yet it created laws as well?
Why are you determining The Gods’ heart when you have no clue how They think?
You say He has selfish interest. Tell me, who has good ones? Again, no one has forced you to live by them.
You can decide, choose, opt and any other words, not to live by them.
No one imposes anything on you.

Does the mother know the child is going to die? No. Does she know Yahweh’s response? No.
She is not omniscient. That’s why.
And because she is not, she still prays. She still does so, because she has a relationship with Yahweh.
When Yahweh chooses to take the child, so be it. His Will is done.

Omniscient means that He sees and knows everything. And everyone. And every situation. And He manages them all.

God cannot be a proper noun for Yahweh and encompassing the Trinity. Jesus has his own name. The HS only remains as a title.
When you say God, like the Muslims say Allah, which another name for God, is it Yahweh they are talking about?

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You wrote, “PS: Inbox me your e-mail so I can send you my brain-scan to assist you in the task above.”

Does this look like a civil discussion? Since I don’t trade insults, I let you have your way.

:smiley: but you do. You do trade insults.

Now ask me when.